Ath. And these, as I maintain, Cleinias, are the studies which ouryouth ought to learn, for they are innocent and not difficult; thelearning of them will be an amusement, and they will benefit thestate. If anyone is of another mind, let him say what he has to say.
Cle. Certainly.
Ath. Then if these studies are such as we maintain we will includethem; if not, they shall be excluded.
Cle. Assuredly: but may we not now, Stranger, prescribe thesestudies as necessary, and so fill up the lacunae of our laws?
Ath. They shall be regarded as pledges which may be hereafterredeemed and removed from our state, if they do not please either uswho give them, or you who accept them.
Cle. A fair condition.
Ath. Next let us see whether we are or are not willing that thestudy of astronomy shall be proposed for our youth.
Cle. Proceed.
Ath. Here occurs a strange phenomenon, which certainly cannot in anypoint of view be tolerated.
Cle. To what are you referring?
Ath. Men say that we ought not to enquire into the supreme God andthe nature of the universe, nor busy ourselves in searching out thecauses of things, and that such enquiries are impious; whereas thevery opposite is the truth.
Cle. What do you mean?
Ath. Perhaps what I am saying may seem paradoxical, and atvariance with the usual language of age. But when any one has any goodand true notion which is for the advantage of the state and in everyway acceptable to God, he cannot abstain from expressing it.
Cle. Your words are reasonable enough; but shall we find any good ortrue notion about the stars?
Ath. My good friends, at this hour all of us Hellenes tell lies,if I may use such an expression, about those great Gods, the Sun andthe Moon.
Cle. Lies of what nature?
Ath. We say that they and divers other stars do not keep the samepath, and we call them planets or wanderers.
Cle. Very true, Stranger; and in the course of my life I haveoften myself seen the morning star and the evening star and diversothers not moving in their accustomed course, but wandering out oftheir path in all manner of ways, and I have seen the sun and moondoing what we all know that they do.
Ath. Just so, Megillus and Cleinias; and I maintain that ourcitizens and our youth ought to learn about the nature of the Godsin heaven, so far as to be able to offer sacrifices and pray to themin pious language, and not to blaspheme about them.
Cle. There you are right if such a knowledge be only attainable; andif we are wrong in our mode of speaking now, and can be betterinstructed and learn to use better language, then I quite agree withyou that such a degree of knowledge as will enable us to speak rightlyshould be acquired by us. And now do you try to explain to us yourwhole meaning, and we, on our part, will endeavour to understand you.
Ath. There is some difficulty in understanding my meaning, but not avery great one, nor will any great length of time be required. Andof this I am myself a proof; for I did not know these things long ago,nor in the days of my youth, and yet I can explain them to you in abrief space of time; whereas if they had been difficult I couldcertainly never have explained them all, old as I am, to old menlike yourselves.
Cle. True; but what is this study which you describe as wonderfuland fitting for youth to learn, but of which we are ignorant? Tryand explain the nature of it to us as clearly as you can.
Ath. I will. For, O my good friends, that other doctrine about thewandering of the sun and the moon and the other stars is not thetruth, but the very reverse of the truth. Each of them moves in thesame path-not in many paths, but in one only, which is circular, andthe varieties are only apparent. Nor are we right in supposing thatthe swiftest of them is the slowest, nor conversely, that theslowest is the quickest. And if what I say is true, only justimagine that we had a similar notion about horses running atOlympia, or about men who ran in the long course, and that weaddressed the swiftest as the slowest and the slowest as the swiftest,and sang the praises of the vanquished as though he were thevictor,-in that case our praises would not be true, nor very agreeableto the runners, though they be but men; and now, to commit the sameerror about the Gods which would have been ludicrous and erroneousin the case of men-is not that ludicrous and erroneous?
Cle. Worse than ludicrous, I should say.
Ath. At all events, the Gods cannot like us to be spreading afalse report of them.
Cle. Most true, if such is the fact.
Ath. And if we can show that such is really the fact, then all thesematters ought to be learned so far as is necessary for the avoidanceof impiety; but if we cannot, they may be let alone, and let this beour decision.
Cle. Very good.