himself; for as yet all has been imperfect, and nothing has beensaid either clear or satisfactory? Now, as far as possible, the lawought to leave nothing to him, but to explain everything, that hemay be an interpreter and tutor to others. About dances and musicand choral strains, I have already spoken both to the character of theselection of them, and the manner in which they are to be amendedand consecrated. But we have not as yet spoken, O illustrious guardianof education, of the manner in which your pupils are to use thosestrains which are written in prose, although you have been informedwhat martial strains they are to learn and practise; what relates inthe first place to the learning of letters, and secondly, to the lyre,and also to calculation, which, as we were saying, is needful for themall to learn, and any other things which are required with a view towar and the management of house and city, and, looking to the sameobject, what is useful in the revolutions of the heavenly bodies-thestars and sun and moon, and the various regulations about thesematters which are necessary for the whole state-I am speaking of thearrangements of; days in periods of months, and of months in years,which are to be observed, in order that seasons and sacrifices andfestivals may have their regular and natural order, and keep thecity alive and awake, the Gods receiving the honours due to them,and men having a better understanding about them: all these things,O my friend, have not yet been sufficiently declared to you by thelegislator. Attend, then, to what I am now going to say:-We weretelling you, in the first place, that you were not sufficientlyinformed about letters, and the objection was to this effect-thatyou were never told whether he who was meant to be a respectablecitizen should apply himself in detail to that sort of learning, ornot apply himself at all; and the same remark holds good of thestudy of the lyre. But now we say that he ought to attend to them. Afair time for a boy of ten years old to spend in letters is threeyears; the age of thirteen is the proper time for him to begin tohandle the lyre, and he may continue at this for another threeyears, neither more nor less, and whether his father or himself likeor dislike the study, he is not to be allowed to spend more or lesstime in learning music than the law allows. And let him who disobeysthe law be deprived of those youthful honours of which we shallhereafter speak. Hear, however, first of all, what the young oughtto learn in the early years of life, and what their instructorsought to teach them. They ought to be occupied with their lettersuntil they are to read and write; but the acquisition of perfectbeauty or quickness in writinig, if nature has not stimulated themto acquire these accomplishments in the given number of years, theyshould let alone. And as to the learning of compositions committedto writing which are not set to the lyre, whether metrical orwithout rhythmical divisions, compositions in prose, as they aretermed, having no rhythm or harmony-seeing how dangerous are thewritings handed down to us by many writers of this class-what will youdo with them, O most excellent guardians of the law? or how can thelawgiver rightly direct you about them? I believe that he will be ingreat difficulty.
Cle. What troubles you, Stranger? and why are you so perplexed inyour mind?
Ath. You naturally ask, Cleinias, and to you and Megillus, who aremy partners in the work of legislation, I must state the moredifficult as well as the easier parts of the task.
Cle. To what do you refer in this instance?
Ath. I will tell you. There is a difficulty in opposing many myriadsof mouths.
Cle. Well, and have we not already opposed the popular voice in manyimportant enactments?
Ath. That is quite true; and you mean to imply, that the roadwhich we are taking may be disagreeable to some but is agreeable to asmany others, or if not to as many, at any rate to persons not inferiorto the others, and in company with them you bid me, at whateverrisk, to proceed along the path of legislation which has opened out ofour present discourse, and to be of good cheer, and not to faint.
Cle. Certainly.
Ath. And I do not faint; I say, indeed, that we have a great manypoets writing in hexameter, trimeter, and all sorts of measures-somewho are serious, others who aim only at raising a laugh-and allmankind declare that the youth who are rightly educated should bebrought up in them and saturated with them; some insist that theyshould be constantly hearing them read aloud, and always learningthem, so as to get by heart entire poets; while others select choicepassages and long speeches, and make compendiums of them, sayingthat these ought to be committed to memory, if a man is to be madegood and wise by experience and learning of many things. And youwant me now to tell them plainly in what they are right and in whatthey are wrong.
Cle. Yes, I do.
Ath. But how can I in one word rightly comprehend all of them? I amof opinion, and, if I am not mistaken, there is a general agreement,that every one of these poets has said many things well and manythings the reverse of well; and if this be true, then I do affirm thatmuch learning is dangerous to youth.
Cle. How would you advise the guardian of the law to act?
Ath. In what respect?
Cle. I mean to what pattern should he look as his guide inpermitting the young to learn some things and forbidding them to learnothers. Do not shrink from answering.
Ath. My good Cleinias, I rather think that I am fortunate.
Cle. How so?